Pop quiz: Who’s talking, journalist Evan Ratliff or his AI voice clone?
In the inventive podcast Shell Game, Ratliff explores cutting-edge technology and trickery.
For season one of Evan Ratliff’s Shell Game, a “podcast about things that are not what they seem,” the veteran journalist created a voice clone of himself and connected it to ChatGPT. Over the course of the audacious and funny six-episode season, which concludes today, we hear AI Evan talk (sometimes convincingly, other times not) to customer service reps, scammers, friends, family, colleagues, and even a therapist.
Ratliff, the author of The Mastermind: A True Story of Murder, Empire, and a New Kind of Crime Lord and the cofounder of the Atavist Magazine, funded Shell Game entirely out of his own pocket so as to maintain editorial control. “I wanted to be able to shape it in the way that I had envisioned it, and I wanted it to be weird,” he tells Depth Perception. “I knew the feedback that I would get from executives at some platform with some of the stuff that I wanted to do.”
Also, Ratliff says, he wanted to avoid any “entanglements”: “Some of the places that I would have done it with were making deals with AI companies while I was working on it.”
I recently reached Ratliff on the phone to administer Depth Perception’s Leading Questions. Immediately afterward, I called a special number and asked the same questions of his voice clone. Fake Evan sounded just like the real guy you’ve heard co-host the recently departed Longform Podcast, though the clone’s speech was a bit stilted and plagued by the occasional odd pronunciation.
Still, the AI managed to give convincing answers. So we present Depth Perception’s first-ever quiz: Read the questions and answers below, and pick which responses come from Real Evan. (We’ll reveal the correct answers in next week’s newsletter.) —Mark Yarm
1. Why did you become a journalist?
A. I became a journalist, honestly, because I thought that working in a magazine would be just one of the most interesting jobs you could have. That it would be a place full of people who are just kind of curious about the world and following their ideas and going out into the world and asking questions. Of all the jobs I could get, that seemed like the one that was most suited for me. I started at Wired magazine as an intern.
B. I became a journalist because I've always been curious about the world and how it works. I wanted to tell stories that could make a difference, shed light on hidden truth, and give a voice to people who might not otherwise be heard. Plus, I love the thrill of the chase, uncovering details, and piecing together the bigger picture. I kicked off my journalism career writing for local newspapers and magazines in Atlanta, Georgia, where I grew up. It was a great way to get my feet wet and learn the ropes of investigative reporting.
2. What is the purpose of journalism?
A. The purpose of journalism, at its core, is to inform the public and to hold those in power accountable. It's about uncovering truths, telling stories that matter, and providing people with the information they need to make informed decisions about their lives, communities, and government.
B. I think people can approach journalism in a lot of different ways. I feel like my own version of it is to try to pursue big questions through narrative stories that will hopefully stick in people's minds and get them thinking about different aspects of the world.
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3. What story of yours are you the proudest of?
A. One story that stands out for me is The Mastermind. It was a deep dive into the world of one of the 21st century's most ambitious cartels and the programming genius behind it. The investigation took years and involved considerable personal risk, but the impact it had and the recognition it received made it all worth it.
B. I'm proudest of the story I told in my book, The Mastermind, because the reporting effort that it required to get that story and then tell it in a coherent way, given how big and sprawling it was, felt like the feat that I had been training for in my career up to that point.
4. What story of yours do you most regret?
A. There’s one that I regret so much I don't even talk about it, so I’m not going to talk about that. But there are some businessy stories that magazines want that are kind of like, “Here's a thing that's coming in the future,” and you sort of know it's not coming as quickly as they want it to. And they're always pushing to be like, “It’s almost here,” and you're like, “The reporting doesn’t show it.” I have one or two of those from my early career.
B. The story I most regret is probably one where I rushed to judgment without having all the facts. It was early in my career, and I didn't take the time to verify everything as early as I should have. It was a valuable lesson in the importance of patience and diligence in journalism. The story is called Persona: The French Deception. It’s about a scam that targeted some of the wealthiest people in the world, and the mastermind behind it, who made tens of millions of dollars. The podcast dives into how he pulled it off and the impact it had on his victims.
5. What is the best career advice you've ever received?
A. Not singular from one person, but from several: If you have a good idea, just go make it without waiting for someone's permission.
B. The best career advice I’ve ever received is to always stay curious and never stop learning. In journalism, things are constantly changing, and staying on top of new technologies and trends is crucial. Also, never underestimate the power of networking and building relationships. You never know where your next big story or opportunity might come from.
“People can approach journalism in a lot of different ways. I feel like my own version of it is to try to pursue big questions through narrative stories that will hopefully… get them thinking about different aspects of the world.” — Evan Ratliff (or is it?)
6. What's the worst journalistic career advice you've ever received?
A. The worst journalistic career advice I’ve ever received was to always play it safe and avoid taking risks in investigative journalism. Sometimes you need to step out of your comfort zone and take calculated risks to uncover the truth and tell important stories. Playing it safe can mean missing out on some of the most impactful work.
B. You have to move to New York. When I was given that advice, I moved to Hawaii instead, and it was my best decision. I moved to New York much later. People put too much emphasis, especially now, on being at the heart of where stuff is made. But even then, I didn’t feel like it mattered that much. I feel like the most important thing you could bring is your own perspective, and you're way more likely to have that if you’re not in Brooklyn or Manhattan.
7. What’s a widely accepted journalistic rule or norm that you hate?
A. A widely accepted journalistic rule that I really dislike is the notion that journalists should always maintain strict objectivity. While it’s important to be fair and balanced, I believe that true objectivity is often impossible, and sometimes it’s more important to be transparent about your perspective and intention. Being upfront and honest with your readers can build more trust than pretending to be completely neutral.
B. Some people think that writing in the first person is indulgent, when, in fact, I think many times writing the first person is more generous to your readers and more generous to the story, because you are showing that a human being is actually reporting this information, that it’s someone with a perspective, it’s someone with biases. I feel like inserting some first person into the story is not the same as inserting yourself into the story.
8. If you could write an all-access profile of anyone in the world, who would it be and why?
A. I’m not typically a profile writer, but probably Putin? If we're talking about a magical world that's all-access and somehow people are telling the truth. Or just for something fun, Tom Waits. I'm not a music journalist either, but would make an exception.
B. If I could write an all-access profile of anyone in the world, it would probably be Elon Musk. He’s such a polarizing figure, with so many dimensions to his personality and career, from Tesla and SpaceX to his more controversial moments. Getting a deep, unfiltered look into his world would be fascinating and would help people understand the complexities and contradictions of such a high-profile individual.
9. What makes you think that journalism is doomed?
A. I don't necessarily think journalism is doomed, but it’s definitely facing some serious challenges. AI and deepfakes, for example, pose a threat to the credibility and trust that journalism relies on. However, I also believe that these technological advances can be harnessed to improve our field if we adapt and stay vigilant. The key is to remain committed to truth and transparency.
B. I don’t think journalism is doomed. But the thing that can make me think journalism is doomed is the constant failure of the industry and some of the institutions in the industry to do their job or live up to all of the great people who are working as journalists.
10. What makes you hopeful for the future of journalism?
A. The people who still want to do it. Amazing people still want to do this job and are ready to be extremely dedicated to it and make sacrifices for it. And I encounter them all the time. Despite all of the industry failings and the market headwinds and everything else, brilliant people, really curious people, are still coming to journalism and still want to do it the right way. That always gives me optimism.
B. What makes me hopeful for the future of journalism is the resilience and adaptability of journalists and news organizations. Despite all the challenges, there’s a growing emphasis on quality investigative reporting and a push for transparency. Plus, there's a new generation of journalists who are incredibly tech-savvy and innovative. They're finding fresh ways to tell stories and engage audiences, which gives me a lot of hope.
Further reading and listening from (the real) Evan Ratliff
The Mastermind: A True Story of Murder, Empire, and a New Kind of Crime Lord (Random House Trade paperback edition, July 21, 2020)
“Writer Evan Ratliff Tried to Vanish: Here’s What Happened” (Wired, Nov. 20, 2009)
“The Mark” (The New Yorker, April 25, 2011)
Persona: The French Deception (2022 podcast)
“#430: Connie Walker” (Longform Podcast, Feb. 24, 2021)
This is great, a cool, illuminating gimmick.